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Permlink Replies: 9 - Pages: 1 - Last Post: Oct 30, 2017 3:02 PM Last Post By: Sarah
William C. Sain

Posts: 2
Registered: 11/14/16
Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 14, 2016 3:23 PM
 
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Hello,

I work for a small organization that has one paperback book for sale. We have an ebook version that we sell independently. We would like to sell it through Amazon, but I am trying to figure out what I must do in order to get it to have "real page numbers" that match up with the printed book (i.e., so Kindle will tell me I'm on "Page 89 of 327" or I could type in , "Go to page 57" and get there). The primary reason for this is that a lot of the readers of our book use it for book study groups where Jane and Dick have the printed edition but Mary and Tom have the ebook, Jane says, "let's turn to page 32" instead of "second section under chapter three." So it complicates matters. People complain to us because they want the "real page numbers" just like their other Kindle books have.

Anyway, there's one print edition. I want the Kindle edition to have the real page numbers to simplify navigation.

If anyone can help me out on the HOW, please help me. So my question is: What do I, on the publishing end, need to do, if anything, to make sure the Kindle format will have page numbers matching up to the printed book?

Thank you

Oh, and If you're going to come here and tell me "ebooks don't have page numbers. What you're asking for is impossible!" Go away, because you don't know what you're talking about. Or if you're going to tell me that there is no point to Amazon's "real page number" feature, go away, because I just explained to you why I want to go through the trouble. (Sorry, I'm tired of know-it-alls telling me that a technology that's been around for years is impossible or useless to anyone for any reason whatsoever.)
cdalebrittain

Posts: 11,116
Registered: 03/05/11
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 14, 2016 3:53 PM   in response to: William C. Sain in response to: William C. Sain
 
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I know this isn't what you want to hear, but Kindle books don't have page numbers. This is because the size of the "page" (and hence the numbers of pages in the book) depends on whether you're reading on a phone, a Kindle, a tablet, a desk-top computer, etc. Readers can also increase and decrease the point size.

I have also seen "has real page numbers" for traditionally published books, but never on an indie book. I think this option is not available to us.

You could in fact make a fixed-format ebook that would be an exact replica of the print book, right down to headers and footers (and page numbers), but you would have to use something like the Textbook Creator or the Kids Book Creator, which results in a book which could only be read on certain devices.

So sorry, I'm afraid what you want isn't available.
Notjohn

Posts: 22,965
Registered: 02/27/13
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 14, 2016 3:53 PM   in response to: William C. Sain in response to: William C. Sain
 
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I'm not sure there's anything you can do. It's certainly possible (at least for mainstream publishers) to add Real Page Numbers, but it's technology-intensive. Personally, I wouldn't go near it. If you really want to pursue this, I think you should contact a really skilled book formatter, such as Hitch at booknook dot biz. If anyone knows the ins and outs of Real Page Numbers, she will.

Good luck! -- NJ

The book: Notjohn's Guide to Kindle Publishing 2016

The blog: Notjohn's KDP Guide
Emily Veinglory

Posts: 3,375
Registered: 04/25/13
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 14, 2016 4:55 PM   in response to: William C. Sain in response to: William C. Sain
 
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Forcing them to match is going to make a very annoying ebook. Remember, people read these on devices as small as an iPhone. So forcing a page match, such as by using pdf, is going to make them effectiively unreadable to some users. If you need to include "go to" instructions in an ebook, you ca use hyyperlinks.
booknookbiz

Posts: 4,003
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 14, 2016 5:55 PM   in response to: William C. Sain in response to: William C. Sain
Correct
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William C. Sain wrote:
Hello,

I work for a small organization that has one paperback book for sale. We have an ebook version that we sell independently. We would like to sell it through Amazon, but I am trying to figure out what I must do in order to get it to have "real page numbers" that match up with the printed book (i.e., so Kindle will tell me I'm on "Page 89 of 327" or I could type in , "Go to page 57" and get there). The primary reason for this is that a lot of the readers of our book use it for book study groups where Jane and Dick have the printed edition but Mary and Tom have the ebook, Jane says, "let's turn to page 32" instead of "second section under chapter three." So it complicates matters. People complain to us because they want the "real page numbers" just like their other Kindle books have.

Anyway, there's one print edition. I want the Kindle edition to have the real page numbers to simplify navigation.

If anyone can help me out on the HOW, please help me. So my question is: What do I, on the publishing end, need to do, if anything, to make sure the Kindle format will have page numbers matching up to the printed book?

Thank you

Oh, and If you're going to come here and tell me "ebooks don't have page numbers. What you're asking for is impossible!" Go away, because you don't know what you're talking about. Or if you're going to tell me that there is no point to Amazon's "real page number" feature, go away, because I just explained to you why I want to go through the trouble. (Sorry, I'm tired of know-it-alls telling me that a technology that's been around for years is impossible or useless to anyone for any reason whatsoever.)

William:

Well, yes, it can be done. However, you're being a little harsh on the gang, here. Mostly, they do know what they are talking about. Why? Well, I'll explain, as we've made these books ourselves.

The "real page numbers" technology, to which you refer, is, by and large, the old format Topaz. Topaz, for all intents and purpose, is a tech wrapper put around a PDF. The book is produced, in PDF format, and then the Topaz wrapper is added thereto. While this does address the real page number situation, it brings with it all the downsides of PDF, as does the other current way of doing this. Oh, and, moreover, Topaz is NOT AVAILABLE to self-publishers. So, in that vein, they are not wrong. It was available to mainstream publishers, but not to you. (Unless you have a publisher's contract with Amazon, and upload your books via FTP, rather than the KDP. Do you?)

The alternative way of doing this is to use Kindle Textbook Creator. Just like Topaz, this is a PDF wrapper. It does preserve the 'real page numbers," and so, in a classroom environment, you could say, "turn to page 32."

However, this also brings with it the downsides of publishing what is effectively a PDF onto Kindles. Firstly, KTC-crafted books are not available for sale, on a large number of the Amazon devices, e.g., the older eInks and the like. (And you can imagine what it would be like to try to read that on a smartphone!). Secondly, KTC is--to my way of thinking--a fairly poor reading experience, as you can't enlarge the fonts, and have the text reflow. This means that as you read, if you want the text larger, you have to pinch-zoom, read, pan/scan, pinch zoom, read, pan scan, lather, rinse and repeat. However, this does address the page number situation.

I've seen a gentleman, who came to us, actually put the "RPNs" (real page numbers) onto the page. For one book, he put small images of the page numbers. For his second, he typed the page numbers, right in the middle of the text, as you'd see on a badly scanned book. I thought that both were very, very unattractive options.

You can also do what we do, for clients, which is, embed the RPN, invisibly, in the body of the book. So, for page 52, you'd embed something like "p52" or the like, as an id, in the body of the book. We do this when a client requires that his index be fully-linked, despite all the obvious drawbacks. If you do this, you can create a "page index" at the back of the book, so that your readers could use the "go to" menu. Click Go To, go to the Index, then click the page number, and jump to the relevant page. It's imperfect, but it does work, and has the added positive aspect in that it works just fine in regular, reflowable eBooks, so that everyone can buy the book and read it, regardless of what device they own. Also, if you embed those, sometimes--not all times--Amazon will embed the RPN functionality in the book.

The Amazon books (made by Amazon, for their trade-pubbed clients) use what's called a page map, in the innards of the book.That works, pretty much, like the page index document I just mentioned, except it's not visible to the human eye. You can't create a page map for a book that will be uploaded vai the KDP. (Or, I should say, you can create it, but it won't survive the upload).

Those are your options. The others weren't totally wrong in what they told you. Those RPNs you want can be done, but the tradeoff is fairly significant, and you should consider what that capability will cost you, either in terms of usability and sales (KTC) , or in terms of dollars (paying a commercial firm to make the embedded page id's and the page index at the back of the book, for you).

I will recommend to you that you don't use the "typed in" page numbers option, as it is really, really unattractive and as a reader, distracting and annoying. I offer that FWIW. The other information I offer as someone whose company has made more than 3,000 books. I hope it helps you, somehow.

Hitch
We produce ebooks
See our real customer reviews here: http://bit.ly/1Jz4EKz
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William C. Sain

Posts: 2
Registered: 11/14/16
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 15, 2016 11:18 AM   in response to: booknookbiz in response to: booknookbiz
 
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Thank you, Hitch. You sufficiently answered my question. This is the best answer I've gotten by far. I know I did come across as harsh, but I've had people say that what I've described (ie the Kindle telling me I'm on page X of Y and the ability to go to a place based on page number) is not possible. People have told me this while I'm looking at the screen that says what page number I'm on. Then they've gone on to belittle me like I'm someone who's been in a coma for 20 years and has never seen an ebook before. I felt like I was talking to someone who denied that flight was possible as an airplane wooshed over his head. Needless to say, I've gotten frustrated.

Back to reality now, to be sure I understand what you've said, in order to get what I really want, what I described in my original post, we would need to have a publisher's contract with Amazon. Right now we have a contract with a distribution company who has said they will not work with Amazon regarding the page numbers. The pdf and visible page numbers are undesirable. Besides making for a poor reading experience, it doesn't meet our needs for having the page numbers in the book in the first place. As for the last option, it is the best, and I've already created that and tested it It works, but I'd really like original option that I described.

And just in case some people still don't understand what I'm talking about.

booknookbiz

Posts: 4,003
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Nov 16, 2016 9:55 PM   in response to: William C. Sain in response to: William C. Sain
 
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William C. Sain wrote:
Thank you, Hitch. You sufficiently answered my question. This is the best answer I've gotten by far. I know I did come across as harsh, but I've had people say that what I've described (ie the Kindle telling me I'm on page X of Y and the ability to go to a place based on page number) is not possible. People have told me this while I'm looking at the screen that says what page number I'm on. Then they've gone on to belittle me like I'm someone who's been in a coma for 20 years and has never seen an ebook before. I felt like I was talking to someone who denied that flight was possible as an airplane wooshed over his head. Needless to say, I've gotten frustrated.

Back to reality now, to be sure I understand what you've said, in order to get what I really want, what I described in my original post, we would need to have a publisher's contract with Amazon. Right now we have a contract with a distribution company who has said they will not work with Amazon regarding the page numbers. The pdf and visible page numbers are undesirable. Besides making for a poor reading experience, it doesn't meet our needs for having the page numbers in the book in the first place. As for the last option, it is the best, and I've already created that and tested it It works, but I'd really like original option that I described.

And just in case some people still don't understand what I'm talking about.

Hi, William:

Yes, I know what you're talking about. What you're seeing, in that book, (we'll call it the running footer) can come to exist in a number of ways.

The first is the "PDF Wrapper" method, which is what I discussed vis-a-vis Topaz and KTC. I told you that you can use KTC, if you are publishing through the KDP, but that it has the drawbacks that I mentioned--primarily, that it cannot be sold on every Kindle device, and secondly, the reading experience lacks wonderfulness. You can emulate what that's like by putting a PDF on your smartphone, and reading it via the pinch-zoom, pan-scan method. That's exactly how a zoomed KTC book works.

You can embed the invisible id's, with a page map at the rear (or, really, anyplace inside) of the book. If you do that, there's a good chance that Amazon will enable the functionality you're talking about. However, what you said, when you started this thread, was that you wanted your READERS to be able to turn to "page 32," which is what I explained. That isn't, actually, the same thing as seeing the RPNs in the running footer text that Amazon creates. With that, if you create the ID's, and a page index, there's a decent chance that Amazon will implement the running footer that you want. But even if they do not, the page-index method does work. This is because it provides Amazon the information that it needs to create the embedded, invisible "page map" (that I mentioned in my first post), which provides the data for the running footer. No guarantees, you understand, but a better than even chance that they'll do that for you.

Hope that helps.

Hitch
We produce eBooks
An Amazon Professional Conversion Company : http://amzn.to/29pWZSg
www.Booknook.Biz

Sarah

Posts: 2
Registered: 10/26/17
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Oct 26, 2017 2:44 PM   in response to: cdalebrittain in response to: cdalebrittain
 
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I have a similar, but simpler question. If I am creating an eBook from a textbook and I use the Kindle Textbook Creator, should I leave the page numbers in the PDF that were already there from the print format, or should I remove them? When I previewed the book, all the pages appeared exactly how they appear in PDF format, so I'm guessing that they stay that way and that this is why eBooks made with the Textbook Creator don't work on every Kindle device?

Many thanks!
Sarah
booknookbiz

Posts: 4,003
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Oct 26, 2017 6:27 PM   in response to: Sarah in response to: Sarah
 
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Sarah wrote:
I have a similar, but simpler question. If I am creating an eBook from a textbook and I use the Kindle Textbook Creator, should I leave the page numbers in the PDF that were already there from the print format, or should I remove them? When I previewed the book, all the pages appeared exactly how they appear in PDF format, so I'm guessing that they stay that way and that this is why eBooks made with the Textbook Creator don't work on every Kindle device?

Many thanks!
Sarah

You leave the page numbers, and that's the right way to do it, but that actually has nothing directly to do with the KTC books and where they work. When a fixed-layout ebook of the kind you describe is made, you're basically putting a mobi-type "wrapper" around the PDF. That enables it to page-zoom, on the device (since the text cannot bre resized via font size and thus reflow--for it to be readable in all the more-advanced devices, the page has to zoom like an image does on a tablet, basically). That functionality doesn't exist on the older devices; it's only possible, really, on the tablets.

That's the short explanation. Hope that helps.

Hitch
We produce eBooks
An Amazon Professional Conversion Service : http://amzn.to/29pWZSg
www.Booknook.biz

Sarah

Posts: 2
Registered: 10/26/17
Re: Getting "Real Page Numbers" on my ebook.
Posted: Oct 30, 2017 3:02 PM   in response to: booknookbiz in response to: booknookbiz
 
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Thank you so much, Hitch!!
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