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STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 5:07 PM
 
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I'm kind of at my wit's end here, so any help is appreciated.

I am trying to create text that is of justified alignment, but that hyphenates SOME words on to the next line - only when it needs to prevent awkward spacing within certain lines.

It's easy enough to do this in Word 2010 (Layout tab > Hyphenation > Automatic), and it looks great there. But when I upload it to KDP, it wipes out the auto-hyphenation, restoring the awkwardly long spacing on some lines.

Here's a visual example of the problem if it helps: https://coreldesigner.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/layout_031.jpg?w=500

My MOBI file looks fine in the Kindle Previewer tool, but not when I test it on Kindle Paperwhite, Kindle for PC, Android, and Kindle Cloud Reader. I'm running into the same problem when I pull it up in the print copy previewer as well.

It seems like I need to edit the MOBI file itself, but I do not know how to do this. I came close with Calibre through the following website/plugin - http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2015/04/29/how-to-add-hyphen-support-to-kindles-for-better-readability/ - but when I tried to use the use the plugin on my MOBI file I got the following error message: "ERROR: No books selected: None of the selected books are of supported formats for hyphenation." The DRM may or may not be causing this error, even though I followed steps from the same link to temporarily disable it so I can make this change.

Any advice? Thank you.

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:08 PM

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:09 PM
booknookbiz

Posts: 4,217
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 6:39 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
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STEVEN F DELONG wrote:
I'm kind of at my wit's end here, so any help is appreciated.

I am trying to create text that is of justified alignment, but that hyphenates SOME words on to the next line - only when it needs to prevent awkward spacing within certain lines.

It's easy enough to do this in Word 2010 (Layout tab > Hyphenation > Automatic), and it looks great there. But when I upload it to KDP, it wipes out the auto-hyphenation, restoring the awkwardly long spacing on some lines.

Here's a visual example of the problem if it helps: https://coreldesigner.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/layout_031.jpg?w=500

My MOBI file looks fine in the Kindle Previewer tool, but not when I test it on Kindle Paperwhite, Kindle for PC, Android, and Kindle Cloud Reader. I'm running into the same problem when I pull it up in the print copy previewer as well.

It seems like I need to edit the MOBI file itself, but I do not know how to do this. I came close with Calibre through the following website/plugin - http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2015/04/29/how-to-add-hyphen-support-to-kindles-for-better-readability/ - but when I tried to use the use the plugin on my MOBI file I got the following error message: "ERROR: No books selected: None of the selected books are of supported formats for hyphenation." The DRM may or may not be causing this error, even though I followed steps from the same link to temporarily disable it so I can make this change.

Any advice? Thank you.

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:08 PM

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:09 PM


Yes, I have advice, but you shan't like it. To preface what I'm going to say, my company has formatted more than 3500 eBooks--so, you can ignore what I'm going to tell you, if you wish; but you'll just end up slamming your head into the wall for no reason. You should not remotely try to control justification, not for eBooks.

You cannot do what you are trying to do. Period. There is no "occasional" hyphenation, simply because you are attempting to control something--a line ending--that will NEVER be the same way twice. It won't appear that way at font size 3, or 7; it won't appear that way on a Paperwhite, or this device or that. It's absurd, quite frankly, to even try. I mean, look at the incredibly short line-length in your sample--sure, you MAY see it that way, on a Droid phone or iPhone--but it will never look like that on any of the dedicated standalone readers, so you're attempting to swat a fly with a bazooka.

Moreover, the soft-hyphens that you're endeavoring to insert are NOT supported, in MOBI format. Where they are, they are inserted via Enhanced Typesetting, which is created NOT by you, but by the renderer/parser that creates the MOBI file from your source material.

I mean, given that no two people will see the lines the same way, why are you even trying? When you preview these, on the various previewer devices, presumably you've played with different font sizes enough to know that this is futile. In enhanced typesetting, the book WILL have hyphenation, but you can't control that, either. Don't bother with Calibre--you're confusing a plugin that does something for someone's OWN book that they're going to read on their OWN Kindle, and something that will work "out in the wild."

Now, your print copy--that's a whole other kettle of fish. You need to address that by doing the layout properly, and then creating a PDF. Upload the PDF, and then you'll have the control you need over line-endings.

I take it you are trying to make the print book with Word or some other word-processor, right? Then get the pages as you wish them to look, and then print to PDF, using Adobe Distiller, preferably. Once you've done that, you can upload the PDF to KDP print, if you will, and it won't change on you. If you persist in uploading a Word file, you are sacrificing any aspect of control over the final appearance.

Hitch
We produce eBooks
An Amazon Professional Conversion Service : http://amzn.to/29pWZSg
www.Booknook.Biz

STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 7:18 PM   in response to: booknookbiz in response to: booknookbiz
 
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Hi Hitch,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your advice, but I have to dispute your assertion (as I understand it) that it's a impossible to do this on Kindle. If you want evidence, you can feel free to look at the example I've provided below.

Download for free the Kindle edition of Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol to Kindle paperwhite (available here: https://smile.amazon.com/Christmas-Carol-AmazonClassics-Charles-Dickens-ebook/dp/B071ZKZBWR/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1512097518&sr=1-4&keywords=charles+dickens+kindle+books+free). There are numerous examples right off the bat, but if you're reading on a Kindle Paperwhite with font size set to 6, the word "regard" in the 3rd sentence of the second paragraph is hyphenated at the edge of the screen. Set font size to 7, and "regard" drops to the next line and is no longer hyphenated.

I know the image example I linked to is a little extreme, but that's about the best I could find from a google image search. I wish I could attach an image from my own text - certain lines just look off, even if they're not as bad as what I linked to. I know I might seem picky, but since I went to the trouble of writing a long book I'd like the text to look as nice as it can look.

I guess I don't understand why Enhanced Typesetting is not picking this up in my own text - I cannot find a single hyphen (not one) to break up an uncomfortably spaced line, where they're fairly common in other books I read from my Kindle library (e.g., A Christmas Carol). To my mind, there must be something that these other publishers (independent or not) are doing when they upload their file that I don't know about, that allows Enhanced Typesetting to insert an occasional hyphen where needed.

If anyone has any other advice, I'd definitely appreciate it. Thank you.
STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 7:32 PM   in response to: booknookbiz in response to: booknookbiz
 
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test123
STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 7:34 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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I have a longer reply, but I received a message that it's pending approval from a moderator (not sure why these messages are coming through, instead). I will wait a bit for that to come through. Thank you.

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 7:35 PM

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 7:35 PM

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 7:37 PM
Ralph E Vaughan

Posts: 3,470
Registered: 12/01/12
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Nov 30, 2017 8:15 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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STEVEN F DELONG wrote:
I'm kind of at my wit's end here, so any help is appreciated.

I am trying to create text that is of justified alignment, but that hyphenates SOME words on to the next line - only when it needs to prevent awkward spacing within certain lines.

It's easy enough to do this in Word 2010 (Layout tab > Hyphenation > Automatic), and it looks great there. But when I upload it to KDP, it wipes out the auto-hyphenation, restoring the awkwardly long spacing on some lines.

Here's a visual example of the problem if it helps: https://coreldesigner.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/layout_031.jpg?w=500

My MOBI file looks fine in the Kindle Previewer tool, but not when I test it on Kindle Paperwhite, Kindle for PC, Android, and Kindle Cloud Reader. I'm running into the same problem when I pull it up in the print copy previewer as well.

It seems like I need to edit the MOBI file itself, but I do not know how to do this. I came close with Calibre through the following website/plugin - http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2015/04/29/how-to-add-hyphen-support-to-kindles-for-better-readability/ - but when I tried to use the use the plugin on my MOBI file I got the following error message: "ERROR: No books selected: None of the selected books are of supported formats for hyphenation." The DRM may or may not be causing this error, even though I followed steps from the same link to temporarily disable it so I can make this change.

Any advice? Thank you.

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:08 PM

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Nov 30, 2017 5:09 PM


Don't worry about hyphenation. It's unimportant. Type your story, ensuring that all formatting (justified body text, cent*ered H1 heads, indents, etc) is done with Styles, and forget about hyphenation, either manual or automatic. That is handled by KDP's Enhanced Typesetting. It's applied behind the scenes and responds to the customer's choices regarding screen size, font, point size, margins, etc. It's not perfect, but it's what KDP wants and will override your efforts.
Notjohn

Posts: 23,805
Registered: 02/27/13
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:15 AM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
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Steven, before you publish your first book (and before you argue with someone who has formatted thousands of them), you really should acquire and read a few dozen ebooks, and read them on various devices at varying sizes of what people now call "font" (it's not font! it's type!). Then you would have a better idea of how they work.

Yes, many ebooks have weird spacing between words in order to justify the lines. It's not nearly as bad now as it was in the dark ages, say 2007-2014. And Amazon's solution to the problem -- called "enhanced typesetting" (note that it's not called enhanced fontsetting) -- is as bad or worse than the problem, because it often leads to things like hyp-
henation.

Perhaps your book, for some reason, does not have Enhanced typesetting: enabled -- and if that's the case, and it really bothers you, you can use the Contact Us option (bottom of this page, right side) to ask Support to turn it on. That might work, or there might be something in your formatting that prevents it.

(Don't trust KDP to publish a print edition. Don't trust CreateSpace to publish an ebook. Each does one thing well and the other thing poorly.)

Good luck! -- NJ

Notjohn's Guide to E-Book & Print Formatting

The blog:
http://notjohnkdp.blogspot.com
William Thompson

Posts: 1,145
Registered: 07/06/14
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:37 AM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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I've read that the main reason for Kindle's Advanced Typesetting feature is to make Kindle ebook story pages look more like the pages in an imprint book. And what do imprint books use on most pages? -- hyphens!

As to your Christmas Carol example. My goodness you are missing the whole point. You give one example when a hyphenated "regard" moves down onto the next line. I guess you really haven't grasped what "reflowable text" in an ebook means. I would spend some time researching that phrase because it will definitely benefit you.

The gist of what I'm saying is that you will never be able to control hyphenation in Kindle ebooks in any way -- because Kindle conversion software and Kindle ereader software will always dominate to control ebook hyphenation.

And if you don't believe what I say then it only remains for me to wish you the best of luck...while you spend all that wasted time and effort chasing a ghost.
STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 11:30 AM   in response to: Notjohn in response to: Notjohn
 
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Thanks, Notjohn, for the suggestion on checking Enhanced Typesetting. It is enabled for my book (it says so on the published Amazon site), so it's puzzling why it's not working correctly. At any rate, I've sent an email to KDP support asking them to look into it. I will wait to hear back from them before doing anything else.

I only read Kindle e-books on a Paperwhite in my leisure time (so, more than a few dozen), which is why I could immediately tell that something was off with my own book.

Just for reference, I posted some images of the problem and sent the following details below to KDP support. I know that Enhanced Typesetting is a process I don't control myself, but my ongoing question is - why does most any book I read on Kindle automatically add the hyphens, and my book doesn't?

Here's a visual example of the problem from my book: https://i.imgur.com/Jjzmudk.jpg (picture taken while reading on a Kindle Paperwhite). You can see that the phrase "alternate difficulty settings" is spaced awkwardly, where the word "settings" should be hyphenated and split on to the next line. It does not add a hyphen to this or any other words, no matter how much I play around with changing the text size. Compare that to the following examples from the free Kindle edition of Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol. In the first (https://i.imgur.com/6PgbtNi.jpg) the word "residuary" is automatically hyphenated to the next line in order to prevent spacing issues. Then, I zoom in to a larger font and "residuary" drops to the next line, and it's no longer hyphenated: https://i.imgur.com/KQto3FR.jpg

STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 11:35 AM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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So, I'm marking my question as "answered" for now, pending a response from KDP support. I will post again here when I hear from them. Thank you.
booknookbiz

Posts: 4,217
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:28 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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STEVEN F DELONG wrote:
Hi Hitch,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your advice, but I have to dispute your assertion (as I understand it) that it's a impossible to do this on Kindle. If you want evidence, you can feel free to look at the example I've provided below.

Download for free the Kindle edition of Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol to Kindle paperwhite (available here: https://smile.amazon.com/Christmas-Carol-AmazonClassics-Charles-Dickens-ebook/dp/B071ZKZBWR/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1512097518&sr=1-4&keywords=charles+dickens+kindle+books+free). There are numerous examples right off the bat, but if you're reading on a Kindle Paperwhite with font size set to 6, the word "regard" in the 3rd sentence of the second paragraph is hyphenated at the edge of the screen. Set font size to 7, and "regard" drops to the next line and is no longer hyphenated.

I know the image example I linked to is a little extreme, but that's about the best I could find from a google image search. I wish I could attach an image from my own text - certain lines just look off, even if they're not as bad as what I linked to. I know I might seem picky, but since I went to the trouble of writing a long book I'd like the text to look as nice as it can look.

I guess I don't understand why Enhanced Typesetting is not picking this up in my own text - I cannot find a single hyphen (not one) to break up an uncomfortably spaced line, where they're fairly common in other books I read from my Kindle library (e.g., A Christmas Carol). To my mind, there must be something that these other publishers (independent or not) are doing when they upload their file that I don't know about, that allows Enhanced Typesetting to insert an occasional hyphen where needed.

If anyone has any other advice, I'd definitely appreciate it. Thank you.


Yes, Steven:

It has hyphenation, because it's an AMAZON edition, made THIS YEAR with--wait for it--Enhanced Typesetting. I can tell it has ET, by the very simple expedient of looking at the LITB. Anyone who does this a lot can tell, via the LITB, whether ET is enabled or not.

I never said it was "impossible to do this on a Kindle." I said, to be 100% clear, that the WAY you are trying to do it is impossible, and I bloody well told you that it would be handled by ET. But, hey, what would I know?

And since you have demonstrated that you think that someone ELSE here is going to have magical advice for you, that's somehow BETTER than mine, go ahead and sit there and try to insert soft hyphens into the book. Did you enable ET for your book? Do you even know HOW? Did you bother to ask how?

I'm not going to bother to explain to you the HOW or WHY of ET, since, clearly, you know more than I do. I refuse to waste my time in this fashion any longer.


To the other posters on the forum: If you guys want to continue to invest your time on threads like these, knock yourselves out, but after, what, 7-8 years now, of this type of thing, I'm done trying to FORCE help on people who refuse to take it, especially this exact type of thing.

Hitch
We produce ebooks
An Amazon Professional Conversion Service: http://amzn.to/29pWZSg
http://www.booknook.biz/

booknookbiz

Posts: 4,217
Registered: 03/04/10
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:32 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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STEVEN F DELONG wrote:
So, I'm marking my question as "answered" for now, pending a response from KDP support. I will post again here when I hear from them. Thank you.

I responded to your last post to me, but it was modded. And since you actually think that you will get some magic answer, from someone else, good luck with that. I already TOLD YOU what you needed to know, but because you don't know enough to know what you don't know, you think that flashing some images around PROVES something.

The Dickens book proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, since it has, wait for it, ENHANCED TYPESETTING.

Jesus, why do we bother? We must all be out of our minds to keep trying.

Hitch
William Thompson

Posts: 1,145
Registered: 07/06/14
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:39 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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I very much doubt that Kindle Support will help you in any way with your problem. I am also astonished that you do not believe the word of a professional ebook formatter like booknookbiz. She gives good advice -- which you reject.

You are indeed a stubborn man who, I think, is destined to remain at his "wits end" for some time to come.
STEVEN F DELONG

Posts: 13
Registered: 05/04/17
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 3:51 PM   in response to: booknookbiz in response to: booknookbiz
 
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Hitch and William,

I apologize if I was rude or curt with my initial question or response. It was not at all my intention, and I do not wish to get into an argument here. I appreciate the info you gave, and that you and everyone else here took the time to give a thoughtful response. Even though this is my first thread, I've gotten a lot of helpful info from this and other threads, which means I am thankful to you and everyone else who take the time to help all of us out with your responses.

-Steve

Edited by: STEVEN F DELONG on Dec 1, 2017 3:55 PM
Notjohn

Posts: 23,805
Registered: 02/27/13
Re: Endline hyphenation not working
Posted: Dec 1, 2017 4:06 PM   in response to: STEVEN F DELONG in response to: STEVEN F DELONG
 
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Thanks, Notjohn, for the suggestion on checking Enhanced Typesetting. It is enabled for my book (it says so on the published Amazon site), so it's puzzling why it's not working correctly.

Of course it's working correctly. You are no doubt not looking at it with a newer Kindle device. I do see automagical hyphens in my Fire tablet and in my Kindle Paperwhite. Dunno how far they go beyond that.

Or perhaps you didn't actually BUY the book, so you're not seeing what I would see.

(Don't trust KDP to publish a print edition. Don't trust CreateSpace to publish an ebook. Each does one thing well and the other thing poorly.)

Good luck! -- NJ

Notjohn's Guide to E-Book & Print Formatting

The blog:
http://notjohnkdp.blogspot.com
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