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Thread: Navy torpedoes


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Salamander Mall...

Posts: 814
Registered: 10/16/17
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 5, 2017 4:57 PM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:
It depends on whether we find them aesthetically pleasing or not.

That will only affect the manner in which we display the hunting trophies on our walls, and the manner in which we portray them in our art. I can certainly imagine human settlers first driving an aesthetically pleasing intelligent species to extinction, then glorifying them in art as noble savages and children of nature untrammeled by selfishness, aggression and greed. Plenty of historical precedent, there.

Homo sapiens exterminated all hominid competitors on its way to the top. Homo sapiens has driven countless species to extinction, from woolly mammoths to passenger pigeons. The history of human-human civilizational encounters is a history of mass slaughter and genocide. Never in the history of the species have humans ever lived at peace with anyone or anything.

The props change. Humanity doesn't. We are the Killer Ape. Why would it be in any way reasonable to expect that we will tolerate the existence of a non-human competitor all of a sudden, just because we now have, say, warp drives? If we are stupid enough to do so, we deserve to be exterminated by said competitor.

He will be an apex predator, just like us. He will certainly not be stupid enough to tolerate us. There exists no evolutionary path whereby some enlightened, serene bunch of pacifist herbivores rise to the top of the food chain and come to dominate their world. Meat equals calories. Calories mean big brains. Meat runs away. Thus meat makes brains work, driving the evolution of better brains. Thus the creature at the top will always be a killer; the smartest, toughest, meanest, most brutal killer on its planet. When we encounter each other, we will immediately go to war over turf and resources. And we will fight to extinction -- ours, or theirs.


After sixty years of debunking, it's amusing that any intelligent person can use the term "killer ape" and expect to be taken seriously.
Moshe Ben-Or

Posts: 580
Registered: 12/28/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 5, 2017 7:03 PM   in response to: Salamander Mall... in response to: Salamander Mall...
 
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After sixty years of debunking, it's amusing that any intelligent person can use the term "killer ape" and expect to be taken seriously.

Debunk away. Start by serving in an army and going to war. Watch the ape come out to play. And if that's too athletic for you, just take a look at our history. By the way, what happened to the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, the Tasmanians and the Taino? Note, while you are at it, that chimps murder each other all the time, and the overwhelming majority (70%+) of orangutan sexual encounters are rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
Salamander Mall...

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Registered: 10/16/17
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 5, 2017 7:25 PM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:
After sixty years of debunking, it's amusing that any intelligent person can use the term "killer ape" and expect to be taken seriously.

Debunk away. Start by serving in an army and going to war. Watch the ape come out to play. And if that's too athletic for you, just take a look at our history. By the way, what happened to the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, the Tasmanians and the Taino? Note, while you are at it, that chimps murder each other all the time, and the overwhelming majority (70%+) of orangutan sexual encounters are rape.

Thanks for the offer, but it's hardly necessary for me to debunk a concept held only by racists and genocide apologists. You are possibly not either (I really don't know you) but I do note those who so vociferously promote it. As to serving in an army and going to war, I think the 1st Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division probably qualify...it's always dicey speculating about people you don't know. A little arrogant, if you know what I mean. But everyone must play to their strengths.
Moshe Ben-Or

Posts: 580
Registered: 12/28/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 5, 2017 10:34 PM   in response to: Salamander Mall... in response to: Salamander Mall...
 
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Thanks for the offer, but it's hardly necessary for me to debunk a concept held only by racists and genocide apologists.

The notion that humans are apex predators whose evolution was shaped by hunting, meat consumption and intercommunal violence is a well-established, dominant scientific theory, held by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. It is about as close to fact as science can get. The misuse of this concept to justify violence between societies is utterly irrelevant. Anyone who believes that violence would not occur anyway needs a history lesson. War happens because humans compete for resources. When a war is desired, an excuse will be provided.

What you are doing, in fact, is not argument at all. You demonstrate inferior intellect and inability to make a cogent argument by resorting to ad hominem and name calling. When your default argument is to call the other guy names, you lose.

As to serving in an army and going to war, I think the 1st Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division probably qualify
No, they do not. Peacetime spit-shining of boots does not qualify. Playing laser tag with blank adapters does not qualify. Fobbit soaking up of air conditioning does not qualify either. Nor do round-the-fob patrols by non-walking so-called infantry who never return fire and never get out of the trucks. Nor does getting blown up by an IED and never coming into contact with the insurgent who set it.

You have never been to war. If you had ever been to war, you would know exactly what kind of animal lives inside every single man. The very fact that you are making some kind of "you're w-a-a-a-cist" argument in the face of a self-evident statement to the effect that humans are violent by nature and will always remain so, demonstrates your complete lack of combat experience. I repeat the basic question I asked before: WHAT HAPPENED to the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, the Tasmanians,the Taino? What happened to the woolly mammoth? What happened to the North American megafauna?

You claim that Man is not inherently violent? Prove it! I have my evidence -- the entire blood-soaked skein of human history, corpses piled upon corpses amid rivers and oceans of blood. What do you have to "debunk" this? Wishful thinking? Religious fantasy? The lion will lay down with the lamb, they will beat swords into plowshares and study war no more? Oh, we are better now, we are enlightened?

Not 85 years ago, the most civilized, most enlightened nation in Europe elected a psychopath who started the biggest war in history and murdered six million of my close relatives. In enlightened 2017 America, one of the two major political parties is unable to pass the statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel by honest voice vote, while Nazis and communists fight in the streets. Spare me the arguments about civilization and enlightenment! Man is Man. Man will never change.
Salamander Mall...

Posts: 814
Registered: 10/16/17
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 5, 2017 11:31 PM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:
Thanks for the offer, but it's hardly necessary for me to debunk a concept held only by racists and genocide apologists.

The notion that humans are apex predators whose evolution was shaped by hunting, meat consumption and intercommunal violence is a well-established, dominant scientific theory, held by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. It is about as close to fact as science can get. The misuse of this concept to justify violence between societies is utterly irrelevant. Anyone who believes that violence would not occur anyway needs a history lesson. War happens because humans compete for resources. When a war is desired, an excuse will be provided.

What you are doing, in fact, is not argument at all. You demonstrate inferior intellect and inability to make a cogent argument by resorting to ad hominem and name calling. When your default argument is to call the other guy names, you lose.

As to serving in an army and going to war, I think the 1st Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division probably qualify
No, they do not. Peacetime spit-shining of boots does not qualify. Playing laser tag with blank adapters does not qualify. Fobbit soaking up of air conditioning does not qualify either. Nor do round-the-fob patrols by non-walking so-called infantry who never return fire and never get out of the trucks. Nor does getting blown up by an IED and never coming into contact with the insurgent who set it.

You have never been to war. If you had ever been to war, you would know exactly what kind of animal lives inside every single man. The very fact that you are making some kind of "you're w-a-a-a-cist" argument in the face of a self-evident statement to the effect that humans are violent by nature and will always remain so, demonstrates your complete lack of combat experience. I repeat the basic question I asked before: WHAT HAPPENED to the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, the Tasmanians,the Taino? What happened to the woolly mammoth? What happened to the North American megafauna?

You claim that Man is not inherently violent? Prove it! I have my evidence -- the entire blood-soaked skein of human history, corpses piled upon corpses amid rivers and oceans of blood. What do you have to "debunk" this? Wishful thinking? Religious fantasy? The lion will lay down with the lamb, they will beat swords into plowshares and study war no more? Oh, we are better now, we are enlightened?

Not 85 years ago, the most civilized, most enlightened nation in Europe elected a psychopath who started the biggest war in history and murdered six million of my close relatives. In enlightened 2017 America, one of the two major political parties is unable to pass the statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel by honest voice vote, while Nazis and communists fight in the streets. Spare me the arguments about civilization and enlightenment! Man is Man. Man will never change.


Trying to prove one's point by asserting an untenable opinion really isn't much of an argument, but it does obviously provide a sense of self-validation. Your belief that warfare produces a cynic or a blood-drinking psychopath is either projection or ignorance. I was hardly alone in returning to civilian life without problems. Most soldiers do. Were we totally unchanged by our experiences? No, but I think that, if anything, it instilled a greater appreciation for peace and respect for life. Most guys I served with drew strength from faith in something greater than ourselves and our loyalty to each other. Not everyone's story of course. Not yours. But that burden belongs to no one but you. You may look in the mirror and see a Kromagg, but others don't.
Moshe Ben-Or

Posts: 580
Registered: 12/28/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 7:35 AM   in response to: Salamander Mall... in response to: Salamander Mall...
 
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Your belief that warfare produces a cynic or a blood-drinking psychopath is either projection or ignorance. I was hardly alone in returning to civilian life without problems. Most soldiers do. Were we totally unchanged by our experiences? No, but I think that, if anything, it instilled a greater appreciation for peace and respect for life. Most guys I served with drew strength from faith in something greater than ourselves and our loyalty to each other. Not everyone's story of course. Not yours. But that burden belongs to no one but you. You may look in the mirror and see a Kromagg, but others don't.

And now you again put words into my mouth. Instead of presenting facts, you go from the fallacy of name-calling to the fallacy of constructing a strawman.

Returning to civilian life without problems is not the issue. Yes, we all locked the Beast back up in its cage and went on with our lives. Yes, we had ourselves a nice religious trip, drank some vodka to the memory of our fallen comrades, kissed mom, schtupped the girlfriend, etc, etc. Yes, we all value peace, because we have seen the alternative. But when you assert that because all these things are true, the inner Beast does not exist, you either delude yourself or demonstrate massive ignorance.

I see that there is no point in arguing with you. You are simply uninterested in rational argument. Acknowledging the reality would interfere with your carefully-constructed, self-affirming delusions. I can point to historical and empirical evidence 'till the cows come home. You will simply dismiss it all out of hand, because acknowledging it requires rejecting your favorite prejudices.

Delude yourself as you wish. The next world war is coming regardless. The Anthropocene is already the scene of a mass extinction on par with the largest catastrophes in the geologic record. That, too, will continue regardless. And if and when we meet another intelligent species, the inevitable will happen -- inevitably.
Salamander Mall...

Posts: 814
Registered: 10/16/17
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 7:52 AM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:
Your belief that warfare produces a cynic or a blood-drinking psychopath is either projection or ignorance. I was hardly alone in returning to civilian life without problems. Most soldiers do. Were we totally unchanged by our experiences? No, but I think that, if anything, it instilled a greater appreciation for peace and respect for life. Most guys I served with drew strength from faith in something greater than ourselves and our loyalty to each other. Not everyone's story of course. Not yours. But that burden belongs to no one but you. You may look in the mirror and see a Kromagg, but others don't.

And now you again put words into my mouth. Instead of presenting facts, you go from the fallacy of name-calling to the fallacy of constructing a strawman.

Returning to civilian life without problems is not the issue. Yes, we all locked the Beast back up in its cage and went on with our lives. Yes, we had ourselves a nice religious trip, drank some vodka to the memory of our fallen comrades, kissed mom, schtupped the girlfriend, etc, etc. Yes, we all value peace, because we have seen the alternative. But when you assert that because all these things are true, the inner Beast does not exist, you either delude yourself or demonstrate massive ignorance.

I see that there is no point in arguing with you. You are simply uninterested in rational argument. Acknowledging the reality would interfere with your carefully-constructed, self-affirming delusions. I can point to historical and empirical evidence 'till the cows come home. You will simply dismiss it all out of hand, because acknowledging it requires rejecting your favorite prejudices.

Delude yourself as you wish. The next world war is coming regardless. The Anthropocene is already the scene of a mass extinction on par with the largest catastrophes in the geologic record. That, too, will continue regardless. And if and when we meet another intelligent species, the inevitable will happen -- inevitably.


Well, at least you've had yourself another nice little rant. Hope you feel better now...though I rather doubt it.
Ned Kelly

Posts: 1,140
Registered: 09/05/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 5:04 PM   in response to: Salamander Mall... in response to: Salamander Mall...
 
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I guess we're all doomed...I'll try to avoid war veterans in case their inner-gorilla emerges...

Cheers

Ned
C. Gold

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Registered: 02/17/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 5:21 PM   in response to: Ned Kelly in response to: Ned Kelly
 
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Hey now, you can't discriminate against just war veterans. All MEN have inner gorillas! :P
Ned Kelly

Posts: 1,140
Registered: 09/05/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 5:40 PM   in response to: C. Gold in response to: C. Gold
 
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Guess we're double doomed then...

Ned
Moshe Ben-Or

Posts: 580
Registered: 12/28/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 6:58 PM   in response to: Ned Kelly in response to: Ned Kelly
 
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Triple doomed, Ned. The women have the irresistible femme fatale inside them, custom-designed to defeat the gorilla and wrap it around their little finger. There is no defense! :)

Also, if you avoid vets, how will you avoid yourself?
Ralph E Vaughan

Posts: 3,425
Registered: 12/01/12
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 7:23 PM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:
Triple doomed, Ned. The women have the irresistible femme fatale inside them, custom-designed to defeat the gorilla and wrap it around their little finger. There is no defense! :)

Also, if you avoid vets, how will you avoid yourself?


Ah, yes, the news headlines have lately been filled with what happens when gorillas and femme fatales meet.
Ralph E Vaughan

Posts: 3,425
Registered: 12/01/12
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 7:27 PM   in response to: Salamander Mall... in response to: Salamander Mall...
 
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Kromagg? I didn't realize anyone but me remembered Sliders. Fun show while it lasted.
Jonathan B

Posts: 4,596
Registered: 10/23/12
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 6, 2017 7:41 PM   in response to: Moshe Ben-Or in response to: Moshe Ben-Or
 
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Moshe Ben-Or wrote:

The props change. Humanity doesn't. We are the Killer Ape. Why would it be in any way reasonable to expect that we will tolerate the existence of a non-human competitor all of a sudden, just because we now have, say, warp drives? If we are stupid enough to do so, we deserve to be exterminated by said competitor.

He will be an apex predator, just like us. He will certainly not be stupid enough to tolerate us. There exists no evolutionary path whereby some enlightened, serene bunch of pacifist herbivores rise to the top of the food chain and come to dominate their world. Meat equals calories. Calories mean big brains. Meat runs away. Thus meat makes brains work, driving the evolution of better brains. Thus the creature at the top will always be a killer; the smartest, toughest, meanest, most brutal killer on its planet. When we encounter each other, we will immediately go to war over turf and resources. And we will fight to extinction -- ours, or theirs.


This assumes everything in the universe mirrors our own tiny corner of it. Anthropomorphizing is not scientifically sound here on Earth. How much more so when we are looking at the wide universe?

I have read books which make a logical case for peaceful intelligence. These are conjecture, of course, but no more so than to assume that it doesn't exist.
Moshe Ben-Or

Posts: 580
Registered: 12/28/15
Re: Navy torpedoes
Posted: Dec 7, 2017 7:52 AM   in response to: Jonathan B in response to: Jonathan B
 
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This assumes everything in the universe mirrors our own tiny corner of it. Anthropomorphizing is not scientifically sound here on Earth. How much more so when we are looking at the wide universe?

I have read books which make a logical case for peaceful intelligence. These are conjecture, of course, but no more so than to assume that it doesn't exist.

One of the bedrock principles of science is that the laws of nature are the same throughout the universe. I have never seen a credible case for peaceful intelligence. I have seen much wishful thinking rooted in Christian religious morality (though the writers themselves did not realize this was so). Being intimately familiar with alternative moral systems, I found arguments regarding enlightened alien civilization both laughable and unpersuasive.

We have, right here on this planet, numerous examples of fairly intelligent creatures. Humans are the smartest, certainly, but we have all kinds of primates, we have killer whales and dolphins, we have octopi, we have various canines and felines, we have clever rodents with opposable thumbs. These creatures have much in common. Peaceful behavior is not among these things.

The fundamental issue at hand is that maintaining a large brain is an expensive proposition. The creature must have a good reason to develop one, and plentiful calories to afford maintaining one. The best reason to develop one is to hunt large prey. The best way to obtain the necessary calories is by catching large prey. It's a feedback loop.

This is the most likely path to intelligence. It has been followed by all the cleverest creatures on our planet. While we could posit some kind of amazing situation in which this feedback loop doesn't work (e.g. "The Gentle Giants of Ganymede"), this is a very large stretch.
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